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 Abortion vs Adoption

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Raz
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 22nd 2010, 6:34 am

Empirewild wrote:
Why have abortions, give birth to it and give it to someone else, atleast someone else would take care of it...Shit, it's not that hard.
That is an incredibly ignorant thing to say. I'm not going to list all the things wrong with it right now.

You can believe that abortions are wrong if you like, but at least have a good reason for it.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 22nd 2010, 8:05 am

Hey buddy, would you let a child die before even born or let parents who maybe can't have a kid or loves kid and take care of them. That is not Ignorant, that's the turth and you're saying I don't have good reasoning. I just gave you the best reason anyone would ever had, if you want more then here


Abortion are much more money then Adoption.
It better giving the child away or even having a child then killing it
It more right then abortion........

Now back on topic

8 Years, damn. They would suck ass to be with some pedophile for 8 years and get out of his wrath. Dickhead
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PostSubject: Abortion vs Adoption   November 22nd 2010, 9:09 am

You can't give points, then say back on topic without giving me the chance of a rebuttal. I'm going to go ahead and lay it down for you, and Zero, Sain or Ryu can split it afterwards for me as I can't be bothered making a new topic, and they're cool guys.

Quote :
That is not Ignorant, that's the turth
Passing your opinion off as 'turth' is just going to make you look like a close-minded fool, I've done a lot of research on this as it was a matter I was greatly interested in last year in school, and I was doing philosophy at the time, so I thought eh, what the hell. Calling your opinion truth is not gonna fly here, kid.

Quote :
Abortion are much more money then Adoption.
That's one of the stupidest things you've said bro. The cost of providing for a child, sending it through school, medical fees as well as presents and well, everything else people do for their children will be slightly higher than the cost of an abortion. And by slightly higher, I do mean so much higher that I have no idea where you pulled this point out of.

Before I start, I want to make one thing clear. You make out that I'm saying every child should be aborted, that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm not even saying that abortion is better than adoption, which it isn't. I was referring to is your idea that women shouldn't get the right to chose whether to abort their baby or not, and should be forced to give birth and put it up for adoption. Which is incredibly ignorant.

If this were the case, and women were forced to give birth, we'd have a situation similar to what Romania went through in few years ago. Now I'm sure you don't know this, and I didn't expect you to; but the ruler of the time banned all contraceptive methods and abortion, so you know what happened? The orphanages were over-run with children and the conditions they were living in was deplorable. You wouldn't wish that upon any children. Surely.

More over, you say child birth isn't that hard. How in the hell would you know? Have you ever given birth to a baby? I'm willing to bet you haven't. Going through pregnancy is incredibly taxing on women; mentally, physically and emotionally. They have their hormones running crazy, you'd be surprised what that can do to the mental or emotional state of people. Among the major and recurring psychological themes prevalent in pregnant and new mothers include feelings of depression, emotional liability, self-esteem issues, body image issues and personal feelings regarding control.

Just to add more, there are PLENTY of children who are up for adoption in South Asian and African countries. Since their populations are going crazy, and will be rising even more exponentially within the next 100 years. It's insane how over crowded they're going to be. Willing to bet you didn't know this either. If everyone who wanted to adopt a baby, adopted one from one of those regions. Not only would they increase the standard of living of all those children, but they'd also help to slow the population boom in those countries making it an overall better place.

Now, if you had some decent reasons why I'm wrong and you're right then I might listen to you, but it's pretty clear you really know nothing about the topic judging by what you've presented. I don't care if you still want to believe all abortion is wrong, just get some facts to support your ideas, or stop talking about it.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 22nd 2010, 1:58 pm

Raz brings up very good points. Personally, I'm against abortion for a couple reasons.

-It's still killing no matter how you slice it.

-A mother is at risk, believe it or not. There have been death cases from abortions.

-Economically, it has hurt America with social security. I'd extrapulate, but I'm short on time.

I'll make a better write up later.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 22nd 2010, 2:16 pm

I'll wait until you do your write up then.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 22nd 2010, 3:37 pm

My opinion for both sides of the situation:

Abortion:
It doesn't matter what state the child is in during pregnancy, it's still a murder. It's not a rodent living in your basement, it's a human being! So you can't afford the hospital bill well, here's a solution: Give birth in a bathtub instead. That's natural and safe and last I checked, free (with the exception of the water bill but that's not the point). Then, if you don't want the child (of course, I don't see why but whatever), then put it up for adoption and let it live.

Adoption:
Here's the short answer: It's not killing a human being, is it?
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 22nd 2010, 5:28 pm

Raz wrote:
I'll wait until you do your write up then.

I think what he means by the social security is that right now there are more old people than young people and so America can't pay off social security like we could when the baby boomer generation was young. We've lost countless potential workers and social security payers to abortion.

Dr. Sage wrote:
My opinion for both sides of the situation:

Abortion:
It doesn't matter what state the child is in during pregnancy, it's still a murder. It's not a rodent living in your basement, it's a human being! So you can't afford the hospital bill well, here's a solution: Give birth in a bathtub instead. That's natural and safe and last I checked, free (with the exception of the water bill but that's not the point). Then, if you don't want the child (of course, I don't see why but whatever), then put it up for adoption and let it live.

Adoption:
Here's the short answer: It's not killing a human being, is it?

I'm inclined to agree with this. If we were to look at this from a purely logical and not moral perspective, abortion would seem alright. However, morals can not be thrown out of this equation and they weigh too heavy here for me to support abortion.

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 22nd 2010, 5:35 pm

Raz, Killing a child is wrong. It's dead wrong, OK, I never said giving away a child to someone else or giving birth isn't easy, but it helps out more and possibly could make the world a better place. Sure, the world is overcrowded,, but killing is a murder. If you don't want to be pregnant, THEN DON'T HAVE SEX!!! then you won't have a kid. THAT'S A LOT EASIER THEN ABORTION!!!! and also, if you like sex, use a condom, not the cheap ones, the good ones (I don't know what the good ones are but most likely it's Trojan)

Anyway, Adoption>Abortion. Done and Done.

Also Sage and Ryu have good answers too.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 22nd 2010, 7:37 pm

I think that abortions are given for the wrong reasons. My Christian faith preaches that abortions are wrong, but I see gray areas in this.

1. A child of rape. Is it fair for a mother to have to bear a child that was conceived by forced intercourse? Sure, there is still the option of adoption, but a child born that way has a lot of potential of being emotionally scarred if they find out. And there are high chances of them finding out.

2. Complications. If the doctors foresee a huge risk in the mother bearing the child, is it worth one or the other, or even both of them dying during childbirth? I would think not. Or what if the child is found to be developing something life-threatening? I think it would depend on how high the risks are.

Another area I'm kind of split on is if the parents are substance abusers. If that serves as a wake-up call to the mother, she'll realize that her cocaine usage and the father's drinking will mess up a child. Should she have an abortion at that point? I'm not sure on this one.

My 2 cents.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 22nd 2010, 7:55 pm

Prince Doebler wrote:
I think that abortions are given for the wrong reasons. My Christian faith preaches that abortions are wrong, but I see gray areas in this.

1. A child of rape. Is it fair for a mother to have to bear a child that was conceived by forced intercourse? Sure, there is still the option of adoption, but a child born that way has a lot of potential of being emotionally scarred if they find out. And there are high chances of them finding out.

2. Complications. If the doctors foresee a huge risk in the mother bearing the child, is it worth one or the other, or even both of them dying during childbirth? I would think not. Or what if the child is found to be developing something life-threatening? I think it would depend on how high the risks are.

Another area I'm kind of split on is if the parents are substance abusers. If that serves as a wake-up call to the mother, she'll realize that her cocaine usage and the father's drinking will mess up a child. Should she have an abortion at that point? I'm not sure on this one.

My 2 cents.

These are two major arguments against us Christians who preach against it. The biggest problem that is caused by this is the loss of choice for the actual baby. "Pro-Choice" is the dubbed term for today, but it truly isn't. Choice implies that the baby chose to die, and we all know that's ludicrous.

You don't have to have a perfect birth or a perfect family to be happy. There are people in third world countries who have nothing and yet are still joyous because they are content with what they have and what they are given.

That said, here's a video to watch.



In my personal opinion, every child should have a chance at life. What if the mother of Alexander Graham Bell chose abortion with him? What if the mother of Bill Gates, George Washington, William Shakespeare, or any person that changed the course of history for the better chose to abort them?

For all we know, the next Einstein could have been aborted. Perhaps the next great inventor of our time was aborted. Maybe the person who could have found a definite cure for cancer has been aborted.

There. I said my piece. I think it's clear where I stand on the matter.

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 22nd 2010, 11:00 pm

As I believe that everyone should be given the chance at life, I believe in adoption over abortion, no exception.

Prince Doebler wrote:
1. A child of rape. Is it fair for a mother to have to bear a child that was conceived by forced intercourse? Sure, there is still the option of adoption, but a child born that way has a lot of potential of being emotionally scarred if they find out. And there are high chances of them finding out.
The mother of the child who is worried about the child being emotionally scarred due to being a child of rape has a solution to this. They can simply let another caring family adopt the child, especially if the mother is incapable of taking care of said child due to conditions preventing it otherwise.
Prince Doebler wrote:
2. Complications. If the doctors foresee a huge risk in the mother bearing the child, is it worth one or the other, or even both of them dying during childbirth? I would think not. Or what if the child is found to be developing something life-threatening? I think it would depend on how high the risks are.
The C-section is there for that purpose, to reduce the risk of a child/mother dying during childbirth if there is a high risk involved
Prince Doebler wrote:
Another area I'm kind of split on is if the parents are substance abusers. If that serves as a wake-up call to the mother, she'll realize that her cocaine usage and the father's drinking will mess up a child. Should she have an abortion at that point? I'm not sure on this one.
No. Just because a child might be messed up doesn't mean if the parents take care of the child and show love to them that they should be aborted. Not every child is going to act like what a parent expects a child to act like.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 23rd 2010, 1:55 am

I do believe that everyone should have chance at life. But I believe more in that abortion has a place. I think that to take that choice away from women would be incredibly unfair. I respect that not everybody has the same opinion of it that I do. But at least Ryu, Zero and Sage can give decent reasons for their beliefs.

My main argument for abortion is to support a good enough reason for it to be put into place. I'm not saying every woman who just wants an easy way out, but I do believe it needs to be within access for those exceptional cases. Like Prince said, children of rape, the woman has no say in that pregnancy. Is that really fair to her? And with the complications, women have died giving birth. I don't know the exact statistic, but I know it surprised me by how large it was.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 23rd 2010, 2:58 am

Ryu wrote:
-It's still killing no matter how you slice it.
That all depends on your personal definition of 'life' and 'living'. Princeton University (via Google) defines 'life' as "the period during which something is functional (as between birth and death); "the battery had a short life"; "he lived a long and happy life""
Assuming that definition is correct, aborting an unborn baby does not involve any taking of life and therefore is not 'killing' or 'murder'.

For the sake of the debate I'll also outline another point of view however this is one that I don't agree with and personally consider to be extreme:
It has been proven that, although they will respond to visual and auditory stimuli from the moment they leave their mother, even after birth infants are not self aware. One could take this to mean that babies are not truly alive until they begin to show that they are conscious and are truly 'experiencing' life.

However, as I said earlier, that whole argument comes down to how the individual defines 'life' so I won't go any further into it.

Empirewild wrote:
Raz, Killing a child is wrong. It's dead wrong, OK, I never said giving away a child to someone else or giving birth isn't easy, but it helps out more and possibly could make the world a better place. Sure, the world is overcrowded,, but killing is a murder. If you don't want to be pregnant, THEN DON'T HAVE SEX!!! then you won't have a kid. THAT'S A LOT EASIER THEN ABORTION!!!! and also, if you like sex, use a condom, not the cheap ones, the good ones (I don't know what the good ones are but most likely it's Trojan)

Anyway, Adoption>Abortion. Done and Done.

Also Sage and Ryu have good answers too.
Just for the record, the whole "Anyway, Adoption>Abortion. Done and Done" thing makes you seem like a complete idiot, like someone who obviously can't argue their points (something you haven't done a single time in this thread) and just makes blanket statements like "I'M RIGHT FULL STOP NO MORE POSTS AFTER THIS ONE" in an attempt to save face when pitted against an intellect obviously superior to your own.

I pose a question to you: If a condom breaks and a girl, unwillingly, becomes pregnant what should she do? Is she doomed to live for the next 9(+) months in a constant state of discomfort and hormonal distress against her will or should she be allowed to live her life? Even after she gives birth she has to deal with the effects the pregnancy has had on her psyche, she could be diagnosed with post-natal depression and spend the next few years in recovery. What if she's still in school or university? I know for sure that it would be incredibly difficult to keep up your studies when you have to deal with a pregnancy, even if you give the baby up for adoption after the birth. What about the father? What about all the other people in their lives who will also be affected by this?

You're telling me you're perfectly happy to potentially ruin the lives of two, possibly more, young people with established identities for the sake of a DNA jellybean?
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 23rd 2010, 7:43 am

Neo, what you said about is one of the most ignorant fucking things I have seen from you and YOU JUST JOINED!!!!!

Only reason I said that is because I was done with the topic, I didn't care anymore. I wasn't even talking about Abortion vs. Adoption until Raz started it. Chain Reaction I guess.


Guess since I'm going to talk about stuff already talk about, why not?

Anyway, Abortion should be Illegal. Killing a child is wrong, even if it is the mother's choice, does she know what she is doing? I guess not.

Adoption is so much easier. Sure, it's not easy during the birth and sure hell isn't easy after, and giving it away is harder, but atleast you know that you let that boy or girl have a chance of life. That itself is good karma in my book. Giving a person life is better then killing it before they are even born, abortion is fucking bad karma and fucking pathetic.

Also, again, you don't want a child, NO SEX!!!!! Sure, condom do break, but if you are certain to not want a child, HAVE NO SEX!!!!! It isn't....Well it is hard, but hey......I got no comment on that.

So yea, I'm done with this, if you want to bash about and rip me a new asshole, go ahead, I got 12 of them anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 23rd 2010, 8:04 am

I'm assuming the fact that you completely ignored my argument and question means that you have no idea how to respond without making yourself look like an even bigger idiot.

Also your post makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Empirewild wrote:
Done and Done was saying to me, Not the discussing. Let it be, but my answer is going to never change.
What the fuck? I get that you're saying you won't change your mind but the rest of it just baffles me.

Edit in response to your own edited post:
Please tell me how I'm being ignorant. Really. I'd love to hear it. The rest of your post is just the same old crap I've already responded to so I'm not going to bother repeating myself.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 23rd 2010, 8:27 am

Ok, first of all chumply. (That's what I'm going to call you until you stop spouting nonsense.) I didn't start it, you did with this ignorant piece of shit you call a sentence.
Empirewild wrote:
Why have abortions, give birth to it and give it to someone else, atleast someone else would take care of it...Shit, it's not that hard.


Empirewild wrote:
Neo, what you said about is one of the most ignorant fucking things I have seen from you and YOU JUST JOINED!!!!!
How exactly do you figure? He's ignorant because he backed up his views with a decent enough argument? Then posed a question to you, which you haven't even bothered to answer? You know what, that makes you pathetic.

Quote :
Anyway, Abortion should be Illegal. Killing a child is wrong, even if it is the mother's choice, does she know what she is doing? I guess not.
I don't even know what you mean exactly by 'does she know what she is doing? I guess not.' But I'm going to assume you're wrong anyway.

Quote :
Adoption is so much easier. Sure, it's not easy during the birth and sure hell isn't easy after, and giving it away is harder, but atleast you know that you let that boy or girl have a chance of life. That itself is good karma in my book. Giving a person life is better then killing it before they are even born, abortion is fucking bad karma and fucking pathetic.
You're wrong, once again. I've outlined the repercussions of pregnancy earlier, and I'm not going to bother again. I challenge you to go through an unexpected pregnancy and then go back to having a normal life afterwards.

Quote :
Also, again, you don't want a child, NO SEX!!!!! Sure, condom do break, but if you are certain to not want a child, HAVE NO SEX!!!!! It isn't....Well it is hard, but hey......I got no comment on that.
Every rape victim who got pregnant now hates you. Nicely done.

Quote :
So yea, I'm done with this, if you want to bash about and rip me a new asshole, go ahead, I got 12 of them anyway.
I wouldn't be this hostile towards you if you bothered to put forward a decent argument, or gave reasons for your point of view instead of just throwing around your own faeces (yes, I'm relating your arguments to that of some sort of monkey); but now it's too late. Other people, like Zero and Ryu have already provided arguments for you, and they have done a good job of backing up their beliefs, so I will respect their opinions.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 23rd 2010, 9:59 am

That's enough hostility out of you guys (Raz, you're fine). We all have a right to believe what we want. By the way, Neo. Killing potential birth is still murder. Life is life.

Also, with an abortion, the mother still must go through 9 months of discomfort. The only difference is that they will just suck the baby out after then.

Partial birth abortions, to me, are 100% wrong as well.

But to my first thing, we can debate like civilized people, yes?
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 23rd 2010, 10:22 am

Ryu wrote:
That's enough hostility out of you guys (Raz, you're fine). We all have a right to believe what we want.
True, however when someone who enters into a debate is completely unable to back up their beliefs and resorts to outlandish statements it negates that right somewhat. I'm perfectly happy to debate politely and I believe that the first half of my earlier post illustrates this.
Ryu wrote:
By the way, Neo. Killing potential birth is still murder. Life is life.
As I said before, it depends on your personal definition of 'life' so there's really no point arguing either side of this as it's likely that everyone will have a slightly different idea.
Ryu wrote:
Also, with an abortion, the mother still must go through 9 months of discomfort. The only difference is that they will just suck the baby out after then.
That's not actually true. These days no legitimate clinic will perform an abortion on a baby that's about to be born; the vast majority are done within two months of conception and, when done correctly, usually don't cause the mother any distress at all afterwards.
Ryu wrote:
Partial birth abortions, to me, are 100% wrong as well.
I agree with you on this one, while I'm not against the general idea of abortions I believe that they should be performed in a humane manner. That means aborting the child within a reasonable period of time and not resorting to any extreme methods.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 23rd 2010, 11:18 am

Neo wrote:
Ryu wrote:
Partial birth abortions, to me, are 100% wrong as well.
I agree with you on this one, while I'm not against the general idea of abortions I believe that they should be performed in a humane manner. That means aborting the child within a reasonable period of time and not resorting to any extreme methods.
I figured this was implied. No way in hell I'd be for abortions if it were done in a brutal way or for partial birth abortions.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 23rd 2010, 6:20 pm

People actually do partial birth abortions too. I'm not sure how anyone could have a clear conscious about it.

Neo wrote:
Ryu wrote:
That's enough hostility out of you guys (Raz, you're fine). We all have a right to believe what we want.
True, however when someone who enters into a debate is completely unable to back up their beliefs and resorts to outlandish statements it negates that right somewhat. I'm perfectly happy to debate politely and I believe that the first half of my earlier post illustrates this.

He is correct, though. You kind of randomly came in and insulted him along with his arguments. It's not going to count against you, but please keep the insulting to a minimum. This also goes for Empire who has been more disrespecting about opinions. Please realize this is not a topic to get enraged about. Besides, we have a new member and getting off on the wrong foot is not a good idea unless they 100% deserve it.

Quote :
Ryu wrote:
Also, with an abortion, the mother still must go through 9 months of discomfort. The only difference is that they will just suck the baby out after then.
That's not actually true. These days no legitimate clinic will perform an abortion on a baby that's about to be born; the vast majority are done within two months of conception and, when done correctly, usually don't cause the mother any distress at all afterwards.

Generally, they take the fetus out after enough time has elapsed (which can be close to 9 months).

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 24th 2010, 12:34 am

Alright, I'm sorry Neo for being a dick, and to other that I may have been a dick too.

Anyway, lot of good argument here, good ones too. Hard to decide which is better. But my answer is the same.

Let say if I want to put something up for adoption it be like "I don't want this child nor do I want to kill it, Maybe adoption is more of a better option."

Abortion is just saying "Hey buddy, I don't want this child, can you kill it?" I know it a dick thing to say, but it pretty much true (atleast for me)

So yea, that's all I can really say, I already say what I need to say and I got nothing left, So yea.

That is all.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 24th 2010, 12:54 am

Empirewild wrote:
Abortion is just saying "Hey buddy, I don't want this child, can you kill it?" I know it a dick thing to say, but it pretty much true (atleast for me)
If that's what you think we're supporting, then you really do have no idea what we're saying.

We're saying abortion needs to be put in place for those exceptional circumstances where it would ruin someone's life. Not just as a cop-out.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 24th 2010, 1:07 am

Well if the person itself (Incase the holder of the baby) is like in dier need like if you say could possibly kill the mother, then fine.

The only time I would agree with Abortion is if it helps the mother if she is in need of critical condition, not just because you want it gone.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 24th 2010, 2:14 am

What if she was in school or university, got pregnant from being raped, and having the baby would set her back and ruin her future?
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion vs Adoption   November 24th 2010, 2:19 am

Here's the thing.


ADOPTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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