Strongest character in DBZ

**Link** · Subject: Re: Strongest character in DBZ October 12th 2009, 9:31 pm

Da Games Elite wrote:

Ah! A debate! Nice! >_< Well, a lot of ground to cover with this one, so let's get started!

Kaio wrote:

Da Games Elite wrote:

Captain Raz wrote:

Kid Buu is the weakest buu. He killed Gohan while he was unconscious, that doesn't count.

Weakest? I wouldn't say that. I'm pretty sure he could hold his own against SSJ3 Goku better than Super Buu did with Gotenks absorbed when he fought Goku was getting the Potara, AND Kid Buu pummeled Majin Buu.

A lot of wrong here.

SSJ3 Goku vs. Buttenks was filler. and even it wasn't Buutenks was literally going for the kill after ten seconds or so of punching Goku around. Without even trying.

The Buu that Kid Buu faought was Mr. Buu and not Majin/Fat Buu. Big difference there as Mr. Buu doesn't have the power of Evil Thin Buu, and therefore is not much stronger than a very powerful SSJ2.

Filler? Alright, I'll give you that. Well, the simple fact of the matter is that Goku could even hold Buu back for ten seconds is more than he could hold Kid Buu back for. Most of the time during the Kid Buu fight, Goku was going all out, and collapsed after a matter of minutes. As for the struggle with Buuttenks, he still had enough energy to resist Buu further. Clearly, Goku wasn't being pummeled as you imply by Buuttenks. It seemed like less of a beatdown than a break-away. Besides, it's clear that both Buuttenks and Kid Buu are stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

No. SSJ3 Goku = Kid Buu. Kid Buu has no restraint so he can't help but go all out. The fact that he was laughing and shit was merely the sadistic side of him. Also, Goku was holding back his full power because it would severely decrease his power and he wouldn't have any time in the form. He also blew apart Kid Buu only for him to regenerate. They hurt each other a decent amount of times. Vegeta also states that Goku can destroy Buu if he used his full power.

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Zechs wrote:

Buutenks was clearly better than Kid Buu. Goku was barely holding Buutenks off while he was going to get his ass kicked. SSJ3 Goku was equal to Kid Buu in strength.

Correct.

Uh, no, not correct. Yes, Goku barely held Buuttenks off, but he didn't fare much better against Kid Buu, who was playing with him the whole time. When Buuttenks fought Goku, he was serious. Kid Buu acted like it was a funny little game. CLEARLY Buuttenks put more effort into the fight than Kid Buu ever did, save for the VERY end.

As said before, Kid Buu has no restraint. Buutenks was messing around with him just like he did to Gohan. If he had dragged the fight on any longer, he would have had his ass kicked in the same way Gohan did.

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Da Games Elite · Subject: Re: Strongest character in DBZ October 12th 2009, 10:43 pm

Zechs wrote:

Da Games Elite wrote:

Ah! A debate! Nice! >_< Well, a lot of ground to cover with this one, so let's get started!

Kaio wrote:

Da Games Elite wrote:

Captain Raz wrote:

Kid Buu is the weakest buu. He killed Gohan while he was unconscious, that doesn't count.

Weakest? I wouldn't say that. I'm pretty sure he could hold his own against SSJ3 Goku better than Super Buu did with Gotenks absorbed when he fought Goku was getting the Potara, AND Kid Buu pummeled Majin Buu.

A lot of wrong here.

SSJ3 Goku vs. Buttenks was filler. and even it wasn't Buutenks was literally going for the kill after ten seconds or so of punching Goku around. Without even trying.

The Buu that Kid Buu faought was Mr. Buu and not Majin/Fat Buu. Big difference there as Mr. Buu doesn't have the power of Evil Thin Buu, and therefore is not much stronger than a very powerful SSJ2.

Filler? Alright, I'll give you that. Well, the simple fact of the matter is that Goku could even hold Buu back for ten seconds is more than he could hold Kid Buu back for. Most of the time during the Kid Buu fight, Goku was going all out, and collapsed after a matter of minutes. As for the struggle with Buuttenks, he still had enough energy to resist Buu further. Clearly, Goku wasn't being pummeled as you imply by Buuttenks. It seemed like less of a beatdown than a break-away. Besides, it's clear that both Buuttenks and Kid Buu are stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

No. SSJ3 Goku = Kid Buu. Kid Buu has no restraint so he can't help but go all out. The fact that he was laughing and shit was merely the sadistic side of him. Also, Goku was holding back his full power because it would severely decrease his power and he wouldn't have any time in the form. He also blew apart Kid Buu only for him to regenerate. They hurt each other a decent amount of times. Vegeta also states that Goku can destroy Buu if he used his full power.

Let's put it this way: Buuttenks was actually working. Kid Buu laughing wasn't so much him being sadistic so much as him having a good time. It's clear when Kid Buu is working hard during the fight. When he's struggling against the Spirit Bomb, his veins are pulsating violently. That is a sign of effort. When he's charging up to blow up planets, his entire body is pulsating again. When fighting Goku, however, this isn't true.

On the other hand, Buuttenks IS pulsating in a similar way when struggling against SSJ3 Goku and Gohan. He IS working hard, as opposed to Kid Buu. The restraints on both Super and Fat Buu kept their power down, and they needed to work harder at it. However, Kid Buu isn't restrained in that manor. Nevertheless, just because you have unrestrained power doesn't mean you'll use it. Kid Buu never even hinted that he was working hard, as opposed to every other DBZ character who is clearly struggling to fight. We never saw Kid Buu's true strength until he was struggling against the Spirit Bomb, as that's the only time he's shown struggling. Most of the time, he seemed to allow himself to be blown up in order to play further. Goku wasn't holding back so much as trying to pace himself in the fight. Take it from an athlete that there's a huge difference. Holding yourself back means you're going easy, but pacing yourself is more that you're using the same amount of strength and energy that it would take to go all out, simply spreading it out over a longer course of time. The same can be said for EVERY DBZ battle. Vegeta also didn't realize that Goku was exhausted, either, so clearly his perspective wasn't the best.

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Zechs wrote:

Buutenks was clearly better than Kid Buu. Goku was barely holding Buutenks off while he was going to get his ass kicked. SSJ3 Goku was equal to Kid Buu in strength.

Correct.

Uh, no, not correct. Yes, Goku barely held Buuttenks off, but he didn't fare much better against Kid Buu, who was playing with him the whole time. When Buuttenks fought Goku, he was serious. Kid Buu acted like it was a funny little game. CLEARLY Buuttenks put more effort into the fight than Kid Buu ever did, save for the VERY end.

As said before, Kid Buu has no restraint. Buutenks was messing around with him just like he did to Gohan. If he had dragged the fight on any longer, he would have had his ass kicked in the same way Gohan did.

Buuttenks understood the severity of the situation. He wasn't just messing around; he was seriously afraid of being defeated, and tried to get Gohan away from the earring. Kid Buu has no power restraint, and no mental restraint, but he also wants to play. He's vicious, but doesn't know when to go all out or not. He'd prefer to drag out the beat down for as long as possible until he gets bored. Remember when Buu was just pummeling Fat Buu? He could have blown him to bits, but rather decided to beat him again and again for pleasure. He didn't derive fun from killing; he derived fun from the process of brutally beating someone down until they broke. When Kid Buu is serious, he isn't laughing.

**Link** · Subject: Re: Strongest character in DBZ October 12th 2009, 11:00 pm

Clearly, Buutenks was toying with Goku. After Goku shot him with a blast, he was smiling the rest of the time and toyed with him laughing as he started to beat him down.

If you were to go by filler (Which you are right now), Goku did the exact same thing with Kid Buu as SSJ2 before he transformed to SSJ3 and was even in power to him.

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Da Games Elite · Subject: Re: Strongest character in DBZ October 13th 2009, 3:40 am

Zechs wrote:

Clearly, Buutenks was toying with Goku. After Goku shot him with a blast, he was smiling the rest of the time and toyed with him laughing as he started to beat him down.

If you were to go by filler (Which you are right now), Goku did the exact same thing with Kid Buu as SSJ2 before he transformed to SSJ3 and was even in power to him.

Alright, I admit you have me there, but you haven't beaten any of my other points concretely.

However, one thing I noticed is that Goku didn't have a full battle against Super Buu as a SSJ3 as he did against Fat Buu or Kid Buu. All his fights were brief segments, so it's thus almost impossible to really measure their powers, now that I think about it.

**Ryu** · Subject: Re: Strongest character in DBZ October 13th 2009, 4:04 am

Meh. This shouldn't even be debated. I agree with everything Kaio said thus far and mostly what Zechs said

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**Link** · Subject: Re: Strongest character in DBZ October 13th 2009, 7:31 am

Da Games Elite wrote:

Zechs wrote:

Clearly, Buutenks was toying with Goku. After Goku shot him with a blast, he was smiling the rest of the time and toyed with him laughing as he started to beat him down.

If you were to go by filler (Which you are right now), Goku did the exact same thing with Kid Buu as SSJ2 before he transformed to SSJ3 and was even in power to him.

Alright, I admit you have me there, but you haven't beaten any of my other points concretely.

However, one thing I noticed is that Goku didn't have a full battle against Super Buu as a SSJ3 as he did against Fat Buu or Kid Buu. All his fights were brief segments, so it's thus almost impossible to really measure their powers, now that I think about it.

Oh, excuse me for getting tempted so easily Razz

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But even so, Kid Buu is certainly not the weakest Buu. He beat the shit out of Fat Buu and all.

Mr. Buu.

I say tomato...

Nah, I was wrong and Kai pointed that out. Mr. Buu is Fat Buu minus the evil black thin buu. Angry Buu doesn't give Fat Buu restraints, so releasing him made him weaker.

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It's debated whether Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu or not.

Which isn't really neccesary. The evidence is as clear as it can get.

What evidence? Has Akira Toriyama ever made a statement? If so, all this is so far is FAN SPECULATION!!!! There is never a concrete statement saying that Super Buu is stronger than Kid Buu in the course of the series, so there's no way you can say there' concrete evidence. Besides, I don't see Super Buu blowing up planets one after another. Razz

Some say Kid Buu because when the Kaioshins and Fat Buu were released, it's stated that it holds back power from Kid Buu (But then again, we don't really know for sure.)

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Only Fat Buu was restrained, not Super Buu.

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Fat Buu was restrained, and Super Buu absorbed Fat Buu, thus he absorbed the restraints. Ergo, Super Buu was restrained.

To an extent, you are correct. Super Buu had the Fat Buu power up which would offset the power restraints, but it would slow him down a tiny bit.

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Da Games Elite wrote:

Well, the act that Goku was able to hold Buutenks at all without being pummeled makes things debatable for me, but I think we can both agree that Super Buu w/Gohan is stronger than Kid Buu.

He wasn''t able to hold Buu at all.

He held him off for long enough. The fact that Gohan was able to get the earring at all is proof of that.

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Yeah, I think that the Kaioshins made Buu weaker, and that, until Super Buu released that weakness from him, he was being held back.

That's right, so Super Buu > Kid Buu. Glad you agree.

Uh...no, that's not what I said. When Super Buu was released from that weakness, he transformed into Kid Buu. Kid Buu was never restrained by the Kaoishins. That was Fat Buu. Since Super Buu STILL had those weaknesses inside him when he was Super Buu, he was weaker. Saying otherwise is the same as saying that, if I digest toxic sludge, the coating in my intestine won't affect me because I've already absorbed it. Although this entire point you made accumulated to nothing to your part, I'm grateful that you did point out that I need to make my points more clear. Thanks for helping me own you. ^_^

But again, Super Buu had the power of Fat Buu. It's not like Evil Buu absorbing Fat Buu made him weaker. Super Buu was a tad more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks I would say (although Gotenks was craftier and had better moves at the time.) And Goku was stronger (at his max) than Kid Buu. SSJ3 Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks (This I believe because even though Gotenks is a fusion, Goku had a lot more experience with his SSJ and stuff.)

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Kaio · Subject: Re: Strongest character in DBZ October 13th 2009, 5:31 pm

Da Games Elite wrote:

Filler? Alright, I'll give you that. Well, the simple fact of the matter is that Goku could even hold Buu back for ten seconds is more than he could hold Kid Buu back for.

Goku and Kid Buu were fighting evenly for episodes/chapters. Goku said he could kill Kid Buu, Vegeta said he could kill Kid Buu.

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Most of the time during the Kid Buu fight, Goku was going all out, and collapsed after a matter of minutes.

Against Buutenks he collapsed after seconds.

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As for the struggle with Buuttenks, he still had enough energy to resist Buu further.

He had enough energy to survive a couple of hits and should a barrage of ki blasts. Roshi says in the Cell saga that a ki blast barrage is an act of desperation.

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Clearly, Goku wasn't being pummeled as you imply by Buuttenks. It seemed like less of a beatdown than a break-away. Besides, it's clear that both Buuttenks and Kid Buu are stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

If Kid Buu is stronger than SSJ3 Goku then Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have made said that a full powered blast from Goku could kill Buu.

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That's a fan-made name for the Fat Buu after Kid Buu. I will give you that he doesn't have the power of Thin/Evil Buu, but, mind you, regardless, Kid Buu demolished him without Mr. Buu ever landing a real blow. There is no denial of that.

It's not a fanmade term, it was in the Daizenshuu. Mr. Buu only faired a tiny bit better than SSJ2 Vegeta, therefore he is as strong as a very powerful SSJ2, meaning Kid Buu stomping over him doesn't mean anything.

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Uh, no, not correct. Yes, Goku barely held Buuttenks off, but he didn't fare much better against Kid Buu, who was playing with him the whole time.

This isn't true, Kid Buu always goes all out. It's just his nature to act like he's alright.

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When Buuttenks fought Goku, he was serious.

lolno. Buutenks was more concerned with Gohan finding the earring then fighting Goku.

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Kid Buu acted like it was a funny little game.

His nature.

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CLEARLY Buuttenks put more effort into the fight than Kid Buu ever did, save for the VERY end.

No for reasons above.

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I say tomato...

I say come with good arguments.

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What evidence? Has Akira Toriyama ever made a statement? If so, all this is so far is FAN SPECULATION!!!! There is never a concrete statement saying that Super Buu is stronger than Kid Buu in the course of the series, so there's no way you can say there' concrete evidence. Besides, I don't see Super Buu blowing up planets one after another. Razz

Goku saying he can't fight Super Buu while saying he can kill Kid Buu is proof enough.

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Fat Buu was restrained, and Super Buu absorbed Fat Buu, thus he absorbed the restraints. Ergo, Super Buu was restrained.

Uh, no. The evil side of Buu is dominant, while the good, restrained side of Buu lies dormant. Coupled with Piccolo's statements that Buu massively powered up and we can assume that Super Buu is not restrained.

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He held him off for long enough. The fact that Gohan was able to get the earring at all is proof of that.

Piccolo was able to hold Freeza off for Goku to make the Genki Dama. Does this mean that Piccolo put up a great fight against Freeza? Or how about Vegeta's minute against Kid Buu?

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Uh...no, that's not what I said. When Super Buu was released from that weakness, he transformed into Kid Buu. Kid Buu was never restrained by the Kaoishins. That was Fat Buu. Since Super Buu STILL had those weaknesses inside him when he was Super Buu, he was weaker.

Goku and Vegeta were laughing their ass off when Super Buu became Kid Buu. Super Buu laid the restraints dormant when he was formed.

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Saying otherwise is the same as saying that, if I digest toxic sludge, the coating in my intestine won't affect me because I've already absorbed it. Although this entire point you made accumulated to nothing to your part, I'm grateful that you did point out that I need to make my points more clear. Thanks for helping me own you. ^_^

You will never own me, not in a thousand years, especially in a DBZ debate.

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I agree with you, and you try twisting the knife? Even after I rebutted all these points you made, I find it rather cocky of you.

I have the right to be cocky, since I'm winning.

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Kaio · Subject: Re: Strongest character in DBZ October 13th 2009, 7:50 pm

Da Games Elite wrote:

Let's put it this way: Buuttenks was actually working.

There is no proof of this whatsoever. He was tanking attacks and turning Goku in a punching bag WHILE AT THE SAME TIME looking in on Gohan.

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Kid Buu laughing wasn't so much him being sadistic so much as him having a good time. It's clear when Kid Buu is working hard during the fight. When he's struggling against the Spirit Bomb, his veins are pulsating violently.That is a sign of effort.

Buu's veins always pulsate when he's mad, like when Vegeta insulted Fat Buu, when Buu Super Buu selfdestructed and when Super Buu changed into Buff Buu and Kid Buu.

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When he's charging up to blow up planets, his entire body is pulsating again. When fighting Goku, however, this isn't true.

Even though it's filler I'll ridicule you. Saiyan Saga Vegeta was going to destroy Earth with a little effort. Since Kid Buu had to put effort into it too we can assume that Saiyan Saga Vegeta = Kid Buu, yes?

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On the other hand, Buuttenks IS pulsating in a similar way when struggling against SSJ3 Goku and Gohan.

lol struggling. He smacked Gohan and stomped Goku. This is literally how the fight goes.

- Goku becomes SSJ3 and spams ki blasts at Buu
- Buu isn't phased in the slightest and starts laughing
- Goku and Buu enter close combat and Buu starts kicking his ass
- Buu deforms

Also, you don't EVER see his veins. That's just a big, bad lie.

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He IS working hard, as opposed to Kid Buu.

Stop pretending this is true.

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The restraints on both Super and Fat Buu kept their power down, and they needed to work harder at it.

Stop pretending this is true.

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However, Kid Buu isn't restrained in that manor.

The ONLY restraint that Kid Buu doesn't have that Super Buu does is his destructive and crazy attitude.

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Nevertheless, just because you have unrestrained power doesn't mean you'll use it. Kid Buu never even hinted that he was working hard, as opposed to every other DBZ character who is clearly struggling to fight.

Kid Buu is unrestrained. UNRESTRAINED.

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We never saw Kid Buu's true strength until he was struggling against the Spirit Bomb, as that's the only time he's shown struggling.

That's the only time someone threw a big ball of epic at him.

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Most of the time, he seemed to allow himself to be blown up in order to play further.

He allowed himself to be blow up because he'd regenerate anyway.

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Goku wasn't holding back so much as trying to pace himself in the fight. Take it from an athlete that there's a huge difference. Holding yourself back means you're going easy, but pacing yourself is more that you're using the same amount of strength and energy that it would take to go all out, simply spreading it out over a longer course of time. The same can be said for EVERY DBZ battle.

This is a children's comic. People fly and throw beams at each other. Bringing real life stuff into this means nothing.

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Vegeta also didn't realize that Goku was exhausted, either, so clearly his perspective wasn't the best.

Vegeta can still sense Goku's power. And the fact that Goku agreed with him when Vegeta said that Goku could kill Buu with a charged up blast means Vegeta can be trusted.

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Buuttenks understood the severity of the situation. He wasn't just messing around; he was seriously afraid of being defeated, and tried to get Gohan away from the earring.

What are you even talking about seriously. Buu was TANKING ATTACKS for lulz and LAUGHING HIS ASS OFF. He wasn't serious at all.

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Kid Buu has no power restraint, and no mental restraint, but he also wants to play. He's vicious, but doesn't know when to go all out or not. He'd prefer to drag out the beat down for as long as possible until he gets bored.

lol I like how you act like some DBZ psychologist or something.

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Remember when Buu was just pummeling Fat Buu? He could have blown him to bits, but rather decided to beat him again and again for pleasure.

This is completely different as Mr. Buu was larges amount of weak and Kid Buu used him as a punching bag, while Goku actually was even with Kid Buu and dealt good blows.

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He didn't derive fun from killing; he derived fun from the process of brutally beating someone down until they broke. When Kid Buu is serious, he isn't laughing.

This is why Buu is known as a killing machnie, amirite?

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Da Games Elite · Subject: Re: Strongest character in DBZ October 14th 2009, 7:30 am

Alright, although I'm still not convinced, I will admit defeat in this instance. I know a loosing fight when I see it, so I'll be manly enough to back down. ^_^