Mystic Gohan or Super Saiyan 3 Goku?

Simon wrote:

carnagevegeta wrote:

Simon wrote:

No. Blowing up planets means jack squat. Saiyan saga Vegeta could do that.

As for Super Buu being stronger than Kid Buu, as well as what Goku said, it's just common sense.

Super Buu is a combination of that fat Supreme Kai, Kid Buu and that other kai who was absorbed.

the point wasnt him blowing up the planet it was they couldnt stop him from blowing up the planet almost everone in dbz could blow up the planet the fact is they couldnt stop him
and goku never said who was stonger which voids the common sense thing

The common sense thing isn't voided at all. Super Buu is a combination of that fat Supreme Kai, Kid Buu and that other kai who was absorbed; thus making him stronger than Kid Buu alone.

no it dosent if that is the case fat buu would be stronger then him and he wasnt when he absorbed the kais he got weaker based off that example

carnagevegeta wrote:

Simon wrote:

carnagevegeta wrote:

Simon wrote:

No. Blowing up planets means jack squat. Saiyan saga Vegeta could do that.

As for Super Buu being stronger than Kid Buu, as well as what Goku said, it's just common sense.

Super Buu is a combination of that fat Supreme Kai, Kid Buu and that other kai who was absorbed.

the point wasnt him blowing up the planet it was they couldnt stop him from blowing up the planet almost everone in dbz could blow up the planet the fact is they couldnt stop him
and goku never said who was stonger which voids the common sense thing

The common sense thing isn't voided at all. Super Buu is a combination of that fat Supreme Kai, Kid Buu and that other kai who was absorbed; thus making him stronger than Kid Buu alone.

no it dosent if that is the case fat buu would be stronger then him and he wasnt when he absorbed the kais he got weaker based off that example

He didn't get weaker, he was stronger. He just showed restraint when fighting. So in a way he was weaker, but powerlevel wise he was stronger.

Simon wrote:

carnagevegeta wrote:

Simon wrote:

carnagevegeta wrote:

Simon wrote:

No. Blowing up planets means jack squat. Saiyan saga Vegeta could do that.

As for Super Buu being stronger than Kid Buu, as well as what Goku said, it's just common sense.

Super Buu is a combination of that fat Supreme Kai, Kid Buu and that other kai who was absorbed.

the point wasnt him blowing up the planet it was they couldnt stop him from blowing up the planet almost everone in dbz could blow up the planet the fact is they couldnt stop him
and goku never said who was stonger which voids the common sense thing

The common sense thing isn't voided at all. Super Buu is a combination of that fat Supreme Kai, Kid Buu and that other kai who was absorbed; thus making him stronger than Kid Buu alone.

no it dosent if that is the case fat buu would be stronger then him and he wasnt when he absorbed the kais he got weaker based off that example

He didn't get weaker, he was stronger. He just showed restraint when fighting. So in a way he was weaker, but powerlevel wise he was stronger.

i dont think so because if that was the case we have to put fat buu> kid bu which we know is not the case

If Buff Buu's power didn't change at all when transforming into Kid Buu, which it is suggested, then Kid Buu>Super Buu in power.

Strider Zero wrote:

If Buff Buu's power didn't change at all when transforming into Kid Buu, which it is suggested, then Kid Buu>Super Buu in power.

there is still no proff super buu> kid buu super buu power level rised when he became buff buu we dont know if he got weaker then super buu from that huge rise off power
also if we go off that fat buu would be stronger then kid buu which he is not when he absorbed the kais he got weaker

I am not going to read all the posts, BUT:

- Goku states he and Vegeta can absolutely not take on Super Buu
- Goku fights evenly with Kid Buu and says with a fully powered up blast he can defeat Buu

That's all there is to this debate.

Some other notes for fun:

There is no such thing as "Goku didn't go full power bla bla bla". He DID fight at full power, he just didn't finish it off. He also wasn't going to let Vegeta have his turn. That's a dub line.

When Buff Buu is formed Goku and Vegeta shit their pants, but then he becomes Kid Buu and they're in stitches. This is clear evidence that Buff Buu > Super Buu > Kid Buu.

The reason Gohan's ki wasn't enough was because Gohan didn't give his ki, he gave his life energy, something completely different. Tenshinhan's Kikoho, for example, is made of life energy and it shortens his life span. Ki doesn't shorten your life span.

They were clearly laughing at his size, not his strength. Also, Kid Buu was calmed down by the time they were laughing.



The expression on Buff Buu's face implies that his Ki was rising out of sheer anger and he was calmed down by the time he transformed into Kid Buu. Later, after the earth was destroyed and they got a sense of Kid Buu's real Ki, Goku states that he might not be able to do anything.

The fact that they laughed at his size means they weren't taking the situation serious, hence Kid Buu not being a threat. When Goku was healed on Namek he also said that Freeza was puny, but he sure as hell wasn't laughing about it.

Buff Buu and Kid Buu are completely different Buus. When Kid Buu "calmed down" he had actually finished transforming and the power he had as Buff Buu had dissapeared.

Goku never says he might not be able to do anything. He says he needs to go all-out to stand a chance. And after a fight with Buu he does indeed confirm that he can kill him, but he's dragged out the fight too long at this point.

Kaio wrote:

The fact that they laughed at his size means they weren't taking the situation serious, hence Kid Buu not being a threat. When Goku was healed on Namek he also said that Freeza was puny, but he sure as hell wasn't laughing about it.

First off, we're talking about a TOTALLY different Goku pre-Frieza and post-virus. From Dragon Ball up until he got that virus, he was so heroic it's not even funny. Goku turned into the biggest ass hole in the Cell Saga and was never the same again.

Quote :

Buff Buu and Kid Buu are completely different Buus. When Kid Buu "calmed down" he had actually finished transforming and the power he had as Buff Buu had dissapeared.

Goku and SSJ Goku are two different forms of Goku. One is when he actually powers up and one is when he is calm and doesn't fight (In the Buu saga of course). So where did Buff Buu's Ki go? Out the window somewhere? When Kid Buu gets angry, I would assert that he reaches Buff Buu's level of strength since it doesn't imply otherwise that he lost any power from Buff Buu.

Quote :

Goku never says he might not be able to do anything. He says he needs to go all-out to stand a chance. And after a fight with Buu he does indeed confirm that he can kill him, but he's dragged out the fight too long at this point.

http://view.thespectrum.net/manga/Dragon%20Ball/Volume%2042/db_v42_089.gif

While he does say that he has to go all out and stand a chance, Vegeta later figures out otherwise.

Kaio wrote:

I am not going to read all the posts, BUT:

- Goku states he and Vegeta can absolutely not take on Super Buu
- Goku fights evenly with Kid Buu and says with a fully powered up blast he can defeat Buu

That's all there is to this debate.

Some other notes for fun:

There is no such thing as "Goku didn't go full power bla bla bla". He DID fight at full power, he just didn't finish it off. He also wasn't going to let Vegeta have his turn. That's a dub line.

When Buff Buu is formed Goku and Vegeta shit their pants, but then he becomes Kid Buu and they're in stitches. This is clear evidence that Buff Buu > Super Buu > Kid Buu.

The reason Gohan's ki wasn't enough was because Gohan didn't give his ki, he gave his life energy, something completely different. Tenshinhan's Kikoho, for example, is made of life energy and it shortens his life span. Ki doesn't shorten your life span.

'
no that is not all there is to the debate if thats the case we have to take in everything he says
when he even began the fight he says he has to go all out to even stand a chance also he isnt even sure when they start the fight

also goku can sense his power level so he knows how strong he is so dont use the excuse as he didnt know how strong he was untill he fought him

Well you're taking what he's saying far too literally there. And all that is contradicted later when he says that he could have beaten Buu.

Simon wrote:

Well you're taking what he's saying far too literally there. And all that is contradicted later when he says that he could have beaten Buu.

yea but it is still going off what he was saying and even when he did say he could beat buu he admits he is toying with him and i agree he is contradicting himself so we cant just pick the one where he says i can beat him when there is no proof
also when he says that he admits he is still toying with him which means he is not going all out he thinks he can beat him if he gets back to full power vegeta is the one that said he would kill him in an instant you can see that for yourself right here also he admits he would be finished in an instant with potra not by himself

I think if we're going to pick a quote, we should pick the one latest in the series, as it obviously has more insight than the one which came earlier.

He has a point though. Goku is an unreliable person at this point. He's like a fucking drama queen haha.

carnagevegeta wrote:

no that is not all there is to the debate if thats the case we have to take in everything he says
when he even began the fight he says he has to go all out to even stand a chance also he isnt even sure when they start the fight

Wait, you're using that statement? Like, right before Goku and Vegeta start playing a game about who's going to fight him solo? Really? Also, I never argued about Goku not needing to go all out. I'm arguing about Goku being capable of destroying Buu with a fully powered blast, a statement which is backed by two formidable warriors and a statement that is never countered.

Also, I can't be arsed to argue with you if you don't use proper grammr, spelling and sentence structure. It's a chore to go through your posts and get what you're saying.

Strider Zero wrote:

First off, we're talking about a TOTALLY different Goku pre-Frieza and post-virus. From Dragon Ball up until he got that virus, he was so heroic it's not even funny. Goku turned into the biggest ass hole in the Cell Saga and was never the same again.

Goku's character hardly changed everything. He let Piccolo and Vegeta live because he wanted to selfishly fight them again, knowing they were a demon and a mass murderer, respectively. He also gave Freeza two chances to leave the battle, even though he's the greatest tyrant in the universe.

Quote :

Goku and SSJ Goku are two different forms of Goku. One is when he actually powers up and one is when he is calm and doesn't fight (In the Buu saga of course). So where did Buff Buu's Ki go? Out the window somewhere? When Kid Buu gets angry, I would assert that he reaches Buff Buu's level of strength since it doesn't imply otherwise that he lost any power from Buff Buu.

Those aren't comparable at all. Goku and SSJ Goku are the same person. Buu's transformations rely on power stolen from other beings. When he became Buff Buu he had the power of the South Kaioshin, but as Kid Buu he didn't. A better comparison would be Cell, who as Semi-Perfect Cell obviously didn't have the power of Perfect Cell.

Quote :

http://view.thespectrum.net/manga/Dragon%20Ball/Volume%2042/db_v42_089.gif

While he does say that he has to go all out and stand a chance, Vegeta later figures out otherwise.

When?

There really is no way Kid Buu can be stronger than Super Buu.

After all, Goku was sure Gotenks as a Super Saiyan could beat Fat Buu. So that makes SS Gotenks and SS3 Goku roughly on the same page.

Now Gotenks needed to transform to a Super Saiyan 3 in order to defeat Super Buu, which sets him far above SS3 Goku.

Now Kid Buu and Goku were fighting fairly evenly, certainly wasn't a riff in power that great with them. If Kid Buu was only toying with him, as you claim, why wouldn't he power down further to play with Vegeta? Inconsistency right there.

Kaio wrote:

carnagevegeta wrote:

no that is not all there is to the debate if thats the case we have to take in everything he says
when he even began the fight he says he has to go all out to even stand a chance also he isnt even sure when they start the fight

Wait, you're using that statement? Like, right before Goku and Vegeta start playing a game about who's going to fight him solo? Really? Also, I never argued about Goku not needing to go all out. I'm arguing about Goku being capable of destroying Buu with a fully powered blast, a statement which is backed by two formidable warriors and a statement that is never countered.

Also, I can't be arsed to argue with you if you don't use proper grammr, spelling and sentence structure. It's a chore to go through your posts and get what you're saying.

Strider Zero wrote:

First off, we're talking about a TOTALLY different Goku pre-Frieza and post-virus. From Dragon Ball up until he got that virus, he was so heroic it's not even funny. Goku turned into the biggest ass hole in the Cell Saga and was never the same again.

Goku's character hardly changed everything. He let Piccolo and Vegeta live because he wanted to selfishly fight them again, knowing they were a demon and a mass murderer, respectively. He also gave Freeza two chances to leave the battle, even though he's the greatest tyrant in the universe.

Quote :

Goku and SSJ Goku are two different forms of Goku. One is when he actually powers up and one is when he is calm and doesn't fight (In the Buu saga of course). So where did Buff Buu's Ki go? Out the window somewhere? When Kid Buu gets angry, I would assert that he reaches Buff Buu's level of strength since it doesn't imply otherwise that he lost any power from Buff Buu.

Those aren't comparable at all. Goku and SSJ Goku are the same person. Buu's transformations rely on power stolen from other beings. When he became Buff Buu he had the power of the South Kaioshin, but as Kid Buu he didn't. A better comparison would be Cell, who as Semi-Perfect Cell obviously didn't have the power of Perfect Cell.

Quote :

http://view.thespectrum.net/manga/Dragon%20Ball/Volume%2042/db_v42_089.gif

While he does say that he has to go all out and stand a chance, Vegeta later figures out otherwise.

When?

wow dude you obviously ignored the scans even when goku said he can beat him he also says he is toying with us
vegeta thinks he can destroy him in an instant yet he also thought he could take him when he first became kid buu no need to get mad if you cant proof your point just giving facts

For God's sake man.

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/

Simon wrote:

There really is no way Kid Buu can be stronger than Super Buu.

After all, Goku was sure Gotenks as a Super Saiyan could beat Fat Buu. So that makes SS Gotenks and SS3 Goku roughly on the same page.

Now Gotenks needed to transform to a Super Saiyan 3 in order to defeat Super Buu, which sets him far above SS3 Goku.

Now Kid Buu and Goku were fighting fairly evenly, certainly wasn't a riff in power that great with them. If Kid Buu was only toying with him, as you claim, why wouldn't he power down further to play with Vegeta? Inconsistency right there.

wait you think ss gotenks= ss3 goku come on you know thats not true also to me ss3 gotenks is not that much stronger then goku
kid buu was playing with him he was torturing him there is diffrent ways to toy with someone like when frieza was torturing vegeta namek saga and if he wasnt toying with him vegeta would of been dead in a couple of minutes

what am i in school

While that's true that he had Vegeta outclassed, I doubt Kid Buu would lower his power to toy with someone, otherwise he would have done the same thing he did to Vegeta to Goku. So we can conclude that he wasn't holding back against Goku.

I mean look at how intelligent Kid Buu is. Does he look like he knows the definition of restraint? Let alone is sane enough to show any?

No, you aren't in school but shit, is it too hard to put a little effort into your posts so they aren't a chore to read? Look at everyone else who has posted in this topic. They put effort into their posts because they at least show some respect to those who read them.

Simon wrote:

While that's true that he had Vegeta outclassed, I doubt Kid Buu would lower his power to toy with someone, otherwise he would have done the same thing he did to Vegeta to Goku. So we can conclude that he wasn't holding back against Goku.

I mean look at how intelligent Kid Buu is. Does he look like he knows the definition of restraint? Let alone is sane enough to show any?

No, you aren't in school but shit, is it too hard to put a little effort into your posts so they aren't a chore to read? Look at everyone else who has posted in this topic. They put effort into their posts because they at least show some respect to those who read them.

i still think he was toying with him kinda like how frieza was toying with goku on namek before he went ss
also vegeta got in some good hits against kid buu which shows he lowered his power level
oh and yes the buus are dumb except when it comes to fighting eve te fat buu is smart when it comes to fighting but dumb in everything else
there is no disrespect meant to those reading this i just feel like its a chore to use correct grammer but no disrespect meant lol

You're comparing the maniacal Buu to the class act that was Frieza? They're completely different. Frieza is the type who would hold back just to prove a point. I have a hard time believing Buu even knew how to raise and lower his powerlevel, let alone would consciously hold back in a fight. He's fucking mental, for crying out loud. As neither of us can actually prove this one way or the other with any definitive evidence, the logical decision would be to go with consistency and decide that if he was going to lower his powerlevel to match Goku, he would do the same for Vegeta.

Kid Buu isn't a fighting genius, he's just a monster. Super Buu was a pretty smart fighter, but I wouldn't even call him a genius. Goku, Piccolo and Vegeta are all more deserving of that title.

It is seriously not hard to at least begin your sentences with a capital and end them with a full stop; or use proper spacing.

Simon wrote:

You're comparing the maniacal Buu to the class act that was Frieza? They're completely different. Frieza is the type who would hold back just to prove a point. I have a hard time believing Buu even knew how to raise and lower his powerlevel, let alone would consciously hold back in a fight. He's fucking mental, for crying out loud. As neither of us can actually prove this one way or the other with any definitive evidence, the logical decision would be to go with consistency and decide that if he was going to lower his powerlevel to match Goku, he would do the same for Vegeta.

Kid Buu isn't a fighting genius, he's just a monster. Super Buu was a pretty smart fighter, but I wouldn't even call him a genius. Goku, Piccolo and Vegeta are all more deserving of that title.

It is seriously not hard to at least begin your sentences with a capital and end them with a full stop; or use proper spacing.

i do think they are dumb but they are smart fighters genius fighters are goku, piccolo, vegeta, frieza, and cell not only they were genius fighters but smart people and like i cant prove he was holding back it is proven that he was toying with them if goku said he was also him sleeping and not even thinking they are a threat is a good judgement that he was toying with them and holding back
not saying using grammer is hard i just said it was a chore

First, how is basic grammar a chore? Shift + letter = capital case. A period at the end of a sentence. And a double space between paragraphs.

I mean I'm hardly perfect, you can ask anyone here, but I do at least these couple of things to make my posts easier to read, and it's the simplest things in the world to do.