Mystic Gohan or Super Saiyan 3 Goku?

carnagevegeta wrote:

justinlynch3 wrote:

carnagevegeta wrote:

Simon wrote:

carnagevegeta wrote:

Simon wrote:

Kid Buu was weaker than Super Buu.

Chou Gohan took Super Buu to the carnival of PAIN

Super Buu > Kid Buu.

Chou Gohan > Super Buu

Therefore: Chou Gohan > Kid Buu

Simon wrote:

Kid Buu was weaker than Super Buu.

Chou Gohan took Super Buu to the carnival of PAIN

Super Buu > Kid Buu.

Chou Gohan > Super Buu

Therefore: Chou Gohan > Kid Buu

kid buu is actually one of the strongest
example 1: in the manga it said that he was more deadly then super buu and deadly does not mean weaker i dont know where that came from but since when is deadly=weaker the case i havent heard that
example 2: surpreme kai is worried even with ss3 gotenks, mystic gohan, ss3 goku, and vegeta are out meaning that he still stood a chance
example 3: kid buu was toying with goku through the whole match did not look worried untill the spirit bomb
example 4: that spirit bomb that he was able to push back had mystic gohans energy in it + everybody else and he still pushed it back

I'm pretty sure that was because he was merciless and pure evil.

He was always smiling against Goku because he's psychotic.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean with your second example.

yes but he still pushed the spirit bomb back with gohans energy
yes he is psychotic but he does worry if he feels he is in trouble of dying
and for my example 2 when super buu changes into kid buu surpreme kai is very worried even when everybody is free

I want to focus on the Spirit Bomb.

The Spirit Bomb takes a fraction of the life energy from every person, every living organism on Earth. It did not include all Gohan's power, it couldn't, it would killed him. King Kai warned of this way back in the Saiyan saga about how the Spirit Bomb can destroy the very planet your trying to save, if misused.

The idea of the Spirit Bomb however is that many fractions of life force energy >>> one strong Ki user.

your right but it does take alot of your energy it didnt take all of it but i think he still gave alot because it got big when he gave his energy and goku felt it
and i think he gave enough so he could make sure kid buu was destroyed

If that was the case, Goku would of fired after just obtaining Gohan's energy. Plus it wasn't just Gohan, the other Z fighters gave energy as well. In a logical sense, the Spirit Bomb was even drawing power from Buu as well. What made everyone else tired was they gave extra, aside from what the spirit bomb normally takes.

And the spirit bomb being pushed back doesn't mean very much fyi. The spirit bomb itself is merely a huge ass ball of collected energy. Goku still got to drive it forward. Goku exhausted, equals no power to push forward, which equals Kid Buu being able to stop it, and push back. All the power in the universe means diddly squat if Goku can't push the attack forward.

That pretty much voids you #4 example right there.

justinlynch3 wrote:

carnagevegeta wrote:

justinlynch3 wrote:

carnagevegeta wrote:

Simon wrote:

carnagevegeta wrote:

Simon wrote:

Kid Buu was weaker than Super Buu.

Chou Gohan took Super Buu to the carnival of PAIN

Super Buu > Kid Buu.

Chou Gohan > Super Buu

Therefore: Chou Gohan > Kid Buu

Simon wrote:

Kid Buu was weaker than Super Buu.

Chou Gohan took Super Buu to the carnival of PAIN

Super Buu > Kid Buu.

Chou Gohan > Super Buu

Therefore: Chou Gohan > Kid Buu

kid buu is actually one of the strongest
example 1: in the manga it said that he was more deadly then super buu and deadly does not mean weaker i dont know where that came from but since when is deadly=weaker the case i havent heard that
example 2: surpreme kai is worried even with ss3 gotenks, mystic gohan, ss3 goku, and vegeta are out meaning that he still stood a chance
example 3: kid buu was toying with goku through the whole match did not look worried untill the spirit bomb
example 4: that spirit bomb that he was able to push back had mystic gohans energy in it + everybody else and he still pushed it back

I'm pretty sure that was because he was merciless and pure evil.

He was always smiling against Goku because he's psychotic.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean with your second example.

yes but he still pushed the spirit bomb back with gohans energy
yes he is psychotic but he does worry if he feels he is in trouble of dying
and for my example 2 when super buu changes into kid buu surpreme kai is very worried even when everybody is free

I want to focus on the Spirit Bomb.

The Spirit Bomb takes a fraction of the life energy from every person, every living organism on Earth. It did not include all Gohan's power, it couldn't, it would killed him. King Kai warned of this way back in the Saiyan saga about how the Spirit Bomb can destroy the very planet your trying to save, if misused.

The idea of the Spirit Bomb however is that many fractions of life force energy >>> one strong Ki user.

your right but it does take alot of your energy it didnt take all of it but i think he still gave alot because it got big when he gave his energy and goku felt it
and i think he gave enough so he could make sure kid buu was destroyed

If that was the case, Goku would of fired after just obtaining Gohan's energy. Plus it wasn't just Gohan, the other Z fighters gave energy as well. In a logical sense, the Spirit Bomb was even drawing power from Buu as well. What made everyone else tired was they gave extra, aside from what the spirit bomb normally takes.

And the spirit bomb being pushed back doesn't mean very much fyi. The spirit bomb itself is merely a huge ass ball of collected energy. Goku still got to drive it forward. Goku exhausted, equals no power to push forward, which equals Kid Buu being able to stop it, and push back. All the power in the universe means diddly squat if Goku can't push the attack forward.

That pretty much voids you #4 example right there.

maybe goku didnt fire it off with gohans energy because it want enough and i think gohan gave alot of his power because he didnt want his dad to lose
i disagree with the ball having no power behind it to me its a stong ass ball of energy that needs somebody to direct it just because he wasnt directing it dosent mean it has no power behind it

Strider Zero wrote:

People say Super Buu>Kid Buu because of Goku's statement that he can't beat Super Buu. However there was a chance that he couldn't maintain SSJ3 long enough to take him down. The statement is altogether bullshit anyway because they could just fuse and fuck the shit out of him.

Like I said, I can't bring myself to side with Super Buu or Kid Buu.

i think alot of claims that people bring up in dbz are BS
example: broly being able to destroy a galaxy yet they fought in his galaxy
examle 2: goku claims he can beat kid buu yet the fight was even
the only time i believe claims in where there is evidence to back it up
example goku says he can beat fat buu i believe that because during the fight it seemed goku was getting the better of him and of course the kid buu saga
i usually like evidence to back up claims

Goku claims he can beat Kid Buu because he was holding back as a means to conserve his energy. If he had charged it up from the beginning into a blast, he would have killed Kid Buu. You saw what happened when he tried it after wasting his time. He started to actually use his power to charge up while Vegeta was holding him off and he ended up changing back because it took way too much energy.

Strider Zero wrote:

Goku claims he can beat Kid Buu because he was holding back as a means to conserve his energy. If he had charged it up from the beginning into a blast, he would have killed Kid Buu. You saw what happened when he tried it after wasting his time. He started to actually use his power to charge up while Vegeta was holding him off and he ended up changing back because it took way too much energy.

i also think kid buu was holding back as well i dont think he went all out

carnagevegeta wrote:

Strider Zero wrote:

Goku claims he can beat Kid Buu because he was holding back as a means to conserve his energy. If he had charged it up from the beginning into a blast, he would have killed Kid Buu. You saw what happened when he tried it after wasting his time. He started to actually use his power to charge up while Vegeta was holding him off and he ended up changing back because it took way too much energy.

i also think kid buu was holding back as well i dont think he went all out

I seriously doubt it. Going all out is in his nature. Kid Buu has no real intelligence other than how to fight which doesn't count because that's an instinct for him. Every Buu was severely uneducated minus Buucolo, Buutenks and Buuhan.

It's also highly likely that Buu can't sense power levels at all.

Strider Zero wrote:

carnagevegeta wrote:

Strider Zero wrote:

Goku claims he can beat Kid Buu because he was holding back as a means to conserve his energy. If he had charged it up from the beginning into a blast, he would have killed Kid Buu. You saw what happened when he tried it after wasting his time. He started to actually use his power to charge up while Vegeta was holding him off and he ended up changing back because it took way too much energy.

i also think kid buu was holding back as well i dont think he went all out

I seriously doubt it. Going all out is in his nature. Kid Buu has no real intelligence other than how to fight which doesn't count because that's an instinct for him. Every Buu was severely uneducated minus Buucolo, Buutenks and Buuhan.

It's also highly likely that Buu can't sense power levels at all.

buu can sense power levels thats how he found them on the kai planet
and still through that match he seemed like he as toying with them which makes me believe he didnt go all out also this buu likes to inflict pain and take his time or vegeta would have been killed in seconds which also makes me believe he was toying with them

carnagevegeta wrote:

Strider Zero wrote:

carnagevegeta wrote:

Strider Zero wrote:

Goku claims he can beat Kid Buu because he was holding back as a means to conserve his energy. If he had charged it up from the beginning into a blast, he would have killed Kid Buu. You saw what happened when he tried it after wasting his time. He started to actually use his power to charge up while Vegeta was holding him off and he ended up changing back because it took way too much energy.

i also think kid buu was holding back as well i dont think he went all out

I seriously doubt it. Going all out is in his nature. Kid Buu has no real intelligence other than how to fight which doesn't count because that's an instinct for him. Every Buu was severely uneducated minus Buucolo, Buutenks and Buuhan.

It's also highly likely that Buu can't sense power levels at all.

buu can sense power levels thats how he found them on the kai planet
and still through that match he seemed like he as toying with them which makes me believe he didnt go all out also this buu likes to inflict pain and take his time or vegeta would have been killed in seconds which also makes me believe he was toying with them

Ah yes, he can sense power levels. Nonetheless, Vegeta was a clear loser in that fight. Vegeta was defeated quickly. Goku, on the other hand, was equal Buu in the fight. Buu's sadistic side allowed him to make Vegeta suffer, but with Goku, he can't do that. He has to go all out or else he's dead.

Strider Zero wrote:

carnagevegeta wrote:

Strider Zero wrote:

carnagevegeta wrote:

Strider Zero wrote:

Goku claims he can beat Kid Buu because he was holding back as a means to conserve his energy. If he had charged it up from the beginning into a blast, he would have killed Kid Buu. You saw what happened when he tried it after wasting his time. He started to actually use his power to charge up while Vegeta was holding him off and he ended up changing back because it took way too much energy.

i also think kid buu was holding back as well i dont think he went all out

I seriously doubt it. Going all out is in his nature. Kid Buu has no real intelligence other than how to fight which doesn't count because that's an instinct for him. Every Buu was severely uneducated minus Buucolo, Buutenks and Buuhan.

It's also highly likely that Buu can't sense power levels at all.

buu can sense power levels thats how he found them on the kai planet
and still through that match he seemed like he as toying with them which makes me believe he didnt go all out also this buu likes to inflict pain and take his time or vegeta would have been killed in seconds which also makes me believe he was toying with them

Ah yes, he can sense power levels. Nonetheless, Vegeta was a clear loser in that fight. Vegeta was defeated quickly. Goku, on the other hand, was equal Buu in the fight. Buu's sadistic side allowed him to make Vegeta suffer, but with Goku, he can't do that. He has to go all out or else he's dead.

yes he cant destroy goku as much as vegeta but it is also in his nature to play around with his enemies and toy around thats why he has that child like nature

If that's so, then why didn't Buu go equal power with Vegeta? He was clearly going at the same power as when he fought Goku.

Strider Zero wrote:

If that's so, then why didn't Buu go equal power with Vegeta? He was clearly going at the same power as when he fought Goku.

we dont know if he was the same power or not there is a gap between ss2 vegeta and ss3 goku also vegeta did get in some hits so i doubt he was using the same power level against goku

carnagevegeta wrote:

Strider Zero wrote:

If that's so, then why didn't Buu go equal power with Vegeta? He was clearly going at the same power as when he fought Goku.

we dont know if he was the same power or not there is a gap between ss2 vegeta and ss3 goku also vegeta did get in some hits so i doubt he was using the same power level against goku

The point is that he could have done the same thing with Vegeta if he was really toying. Goku and Buu were clearly equal and Goku was holding back.

Strider Zero wrote:

carnagevegeta wrote:

Strider Zero wrote:

If that's so, then why didn't Buu go equal power with Vegeta? He was clearly going at the same power as when he fought Goku.

we dont know if he was the same power or not there is a gap between ss2 vegeta and ss3 goku also vegeta did get in some hits so i doubt he was using the same power level against goku

The point is that he could have done the same thing with Vegeta if he was really toying. Goku and Buu were clearly equal and Goku was holding back.

And thus, this is so true. When Vegeta and Goku were talking, Vegeta said that he's a SSJ3 and that he has the power to take out Kid Buu but Goku replied that he let it drag out so long that he did not have the energy to do it no more. A mistake on his part but I guess that was just the Saiyan in him kicking in.

Strider Zero wrote:

carnagevegeta wrote:

Strider Zero wrote:

If that's so, then why didn't Buu go equal power with Vegeta? He was clearly going at the same power as when he fought Goku.

we dont know if he was the same power or not there is a gap between ss2 vegeta and ss3 goku also vegeta did get in some hits so i doubt he was using the same power level against goku

The point is that he could have done the same thing with Vegeta if he was really toying. Goku and Buu were clearly equal and Goku was holding back.

you can tell he dosent take them serious from the jump holding back also if anything ss3 goku was at full power from the start and then the fight took a toll on him he wasnt holding back at all he just lost power and kid buu was also toying with fat buu which shows that he toys with most of his opponets

ArmorZeroX wrote:

Strider Zero wrote:

carnagevegeta wrote:

Strider Zero wrote:

If that's so, then why didn't Buu go equal power with Vegeta? He was clearly going at the same power as when he fought Goku.

we dont know if he was the same power or not there is a gap between ss2 vegeta and ss3 goku also vegeta did get in some hits so i doubt he was using the same power level against goku

The point is that he could have done the same thing with Vegeta if he was really toying. Goku and Buu were clearly equal and Goku was holding back.

And thus, this is so true. When Vegeta and Goku were talking, Vegeta said that he's a SSJ3 and that he has the power to take out Kid Buu but Goku replied that he let it drag out so long that he did not have the energy to do it no more. A mistake on his part but I guess that was just the Saiyan in him kicking in.

vegeta was laughing and also thought he could take him the first time he saw kid buu they underestimated him from the start probably were still underestimating them

carnagevegeta wrote:

ArmorZeroX wrote:

Strider Zero wrote:

carnagevegeta wrote:

Strider Zero wrote:

If that's so, then why didn't Buu go equal power with Vegeta? He was clearly going at the same power as when he fought Goku.

we dont know if he was the same power or not there is a gap between ss2 vegeta and ss3 goku also vegeta did get in some hits so i doubt he was using the same power level against goku

The point is that he could have done the same thing with Vegeta if he was really toying. Goku and Buu were clearly equal and Goku was holding back.

And thus, this is so true. When Vegeta and Goku were talking, Vegeta said that he's a SSJ3 and that he has the power to take out Kid Buu but Goku replied that he let it drag out so long that he did not have the energy to do it no more. A mistake on his part but I guess that was just the Saiyan in him kicking in.

vegeta was laughing and also thought he could take him the first time he saw kid buu they underestimated him from the start probably were still underestimating them

That's exactly why Goku didn't go full power. Because he wanted to see what Kid Buu was capable of but when he found out that he had to go full power, it was too late and he didn't have the energy to do it since SSJ3 is insane with energy consuming.

ArmorZeroX wrote:

carnagevegeta wrote:

ArmorZeroX wrote:

Strider Zero wrote:

carnagevegeta wrote:

Strider Zero wrote:

If that's so, then why didn't Buu go equal power with Vegeta? He was clearly going at the same power as when he fought Goku.

we dont know if he was the same power or not there is a gap between ss2 vegeta and ss3 goku also vegeta did get in some hits so i doubt he was using the same power level against goku

The point is that he could have done the same thing with Vegeta if he was really toying. Goku and Buu were clearly equal and Goku was holding back.

And thus, this is so true. When Vegeta and Goku were talking, Vegeta said that he's a SSJ3 and that he has the power to take out Kid Buu but Goku replied that he let it drag out so long that he did not have the energy to do it no more. A mistake on his part but I guess that was just the Saiyan in him kicking in.

vegeta was laughing and also thought he could take him the first time he saw kid buu they underestimated him from the start probably were still underestimating them

That's exactly why Goku didn't go full power. Because he wanted to see what Kid Buu was capable of but when he found out that he had to go full power, it was too late and he didn't have the energy to do it since SSJ3 is insane with energy consuming.

i would agree with that if they fought on earth they thought he was weak untill they saw him blow up the earth so easily they knew he was a huge time threat after that but before that they didnt know so he wen all out in on the surpreme kai planet

No. Blowing up planets means jack squat. Saiyan saga Vegeta could do that.

As for Super Buu being stronger than Kid Buu, as well as what Goku said, it's just common sense.

Super Buu is a combnation of that fat Supreme Kai, Kid Buu and that other kai who was absorbed.

Simon wrote:

No. Blowing up planets means jack squat. Saiyan saga Vegeta could do that.

As for Super Buu being stronger than Kid Buu, as well as what Goku said, it's just common sense.

Super Buu is a combnation of that fat Supreme Kai, Kid Buu and that other kai who was absorbed.

the point wasnt him blowing up the planet it was they couldnt stop him from blowing up the planet almost everone in dbz could blow up the planet the fact is they couldnt stop him
and goku never said who was stonger which voids the common sense thing

About that statement, just because Vegeta said he could beat Super Buu, does that mean that he's as strong as Chou Gohan? No. Statements don't always mean they are right.

carnagevegeta wrote:

Simon wrote:

No. Blowing up planets means jack squat. Saiyan saga Vegeta could do that.

As for Super Buu being stronger than Kid Buu, as well as what Goku said, it's just common sense.

Super Buu is a combination of that fat Supreme Kai, Kid Buu and that other kai who was absorbed.

the point wasnt him blowing up the planet it was they couldnt stop him from blowing up the planet almost everone in dbz could blow up the planet the fact is they couldnt stop him
and goku never said who was stonger which voids the common sense thing

The common sense thing isn't voided at all. Super Buu is a combination of that fat Supreme Kai, Kid Buu and that other kai who was absorbed; thus making him stronger than Kid Buu alone.

Are there any posts here I need to reply to?

I'm sure there are some, but I cbf trawling through the topic for them.

Guess I'll just have to do it myself to ensure the owning award for next year.

Well after reading over this part again, there a couple things I'd like to state from the manga.

When Super Buu went into Buff Buu, his power was rising as stated and they never state that he powered down. When Vegeta and Goku were laughing at him, it was implying his size. Vegeta calls him a "midget". If they were laughing at his power level, Vegeta certainly wouldn't laugh.

Also Goku said "I don't know if we can do anything, but let's try anyways." when Kid Buu ITs to the Kaioshin planet. This was right before their rock paper sciscors game. So Goku's SAME antics about Super Buu apply for Kid Buu as well.

When Super Buu appeared in front of Goku and Vegeta, Goku seems to think that they in fact CAN beat him while Super Buu disagrees, but that's normal right?